Perhaps I’m naïve. I like simple, logical answers. The earliest publications on R1b described their ancestor R1, entering Europe from central Asia during a warm period about 30,000 – 40,000 years ago. The last ice age forced R1 to split and take refuge south in Iberia and the Balkans. Time and separation gave us the mutations R1b in Iberia and R1a in the Balkans. That split is roughly what we see today in those regions. That’s clean and simple. The real world is much more complex. R1b and R1a were not alone in Europe. Their interactions with the other major European haplogroups- E, G, I, J and N has to be taken into consideration. We can’t analyze R1b as if it were in a vacuum.
Let’s take y-DNA haplogroups out of the picture for a moment. We know that modern humans survived and flourished in the Iberian refuge during the end of the last ice age, based on mitochondrial DNA studies. [Could someone please run some y-DNA tests on those samples?] The tribes in western Europe, whoever they were, had a 1,000 to 2,500 year head start over the tribes in central and eastern Europe on repopulating the continent. The ice sheets melted and retreated earlier on the west coast than in the rest of Europe. This gave the inhabitants of the Iberian refuge an advantage – a “first-mover” advantage gained by being the first to move north. These first-movers gained a land-monopoly. A tribe with a first-mover advantage and over a 1,000 year head start should have been hard to displace from western Europe. In other anthropological situations, those original inhabitants are forced into niche locations by invading populations, but very rarely are displaced completely. What we see on the west coast of Europe, is a very strong R1b presence and no niche haplogroups of a significant age. From this point of view, either R1b is the original Iberian inhabitant or R1b completely decimated another earlier haplogroup that had a 1,000 year geographical head start. I like simple. R1b was in Iberia first.
Let’s throw some data at the problem. The R1b haplogroup population is enormous. The majority fall into SNPs R-P312 (Celto-Iberian) and R-U106 (Celto-Germanic). There is so much information there that it tends to be noise. If you want to get to the root of R1b (R-M343), you need to work with the branches that are closest to the root - R-L278*, R-V88, R-M73*, R-YSC0000072/PF6426 and R-L23.
• • R1b M343
• • • R1b1 L278
• • • • R1b1a P297
• • • • • R1b1a1 M73
• • • • • R1b1a2 M269
• • • • • • R1b1a2a L23
• • • • R1b1c V88
[• • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1 U106 - too far downstream]
[• • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2 P312 - too far downstream]
I collected 250 records that matched these SNPs or were genetically close by STR haplotype. These records were mapped based on user-reported most distant ancestor location.
This is not a connect the dot exercise. Just because two or more records appear geographically close doesn’t mean that they are genetically close. These 250 records have to be treated like a network. If this were Facebook, these folks would be randomly associated through family, business, school or neighbor connections. These are y-DNA records. There is a relationship between every pair. Each pair has a different common ancestor, with a different number of generations to get back to that ancestor. Here is an example of what that relationship looks like across multiple pairs. The number represents years back to a common ancestor (TMRCA).
When all of the interrelations are taken into consideration, the group of records can be displayed as a relationship tree of who is older or younger and who is more closely related to whom (phylogenetic tree).
Now we have who, where, when and how the records are connected. At this point it does become a connect the dots exercise. I’ve used a biogeographical analysis to connect very specific sets of dots based on the calculated interrelation of the entire group.
The R1b genetic family tree has a trunk and many branches. The trunk of the R1b data is firmly rooted in Iberia. The main core of the tree stretches along the western Atlantic coast of Europe and branches across Europe and even back into Asia. The results that I found support the work of the earliest pioneers in the field and conflict with the latest publications.
Every analysis has its limitations. The work that I’ve done looks back at the R1b family about 8,000 years. The scarcity of data only allowed for me to predict the origin of R-L278, which is currently one branch below the main root of R-M343. I can’t tell where R1b was between the times that R1 split into R1b and R1a, yet.
In my analysis, I have included R-V88. They are a curious group of R1b found in Africa and the Middle East. I will be treating R-V88 in a separate write-up to do justice to a very interesting back migration story. The R-V88 article can be found here.
Maglio, MR (2014) Biogeographical Evidence for the Iberian Origins of R1b-L278 via Haplotype Aggregation (Link)
This comment has been removed by the author.ReplyDelete
Paternal haplogroup R1b1b2a1a Maternal hap. V both from northern Spain ( I was born in Santander). According to this it seems that we are one of those that dind'nt move much since the last Ice AgeReplyDelete
I completely agree with you...ReplyDelete
Iberians are link between R1B in all of western Europe...
A lot of false claims in this blog post,ReplyDelete
R1a is not a European origin haplogroup, R1a originated in Central and Southern Asia and not Europe; it migrated to Europe in giant population waves from the Central Asian steppes. Modern White Europeans have little to nothing to do with ancient Europeans or neolithic Europeans, they are the descendants of massive migrants from the Central Asian and Siberian steppes. R1a most likely originated in Southern Asia, in the countries of modern India/Pakistan/Bangladesh/Sri Lanka because there is a heavy presence there of it unseen in other regions besides Europe in unadmixed groups of people.
Likewise R1b is not a European origin haplogroup either, it migrated there from Western Asia, and cultural groups like "Germanic", "Celtic", "Ilberians" is completely meaningless because those are modern cultural connotations that can't apply to that time in history.
Theories, they change every yer or two, especially the 'The First Out Of Africa" theory. The "Northern Route" theory conflicting the "Southern Route" theory. The basal paragroup H I J K has not been identified in living males or ancient remains, estimated more than 50,000 years ago. And then the blood type study supporsts the migration, too. Basal K is exceptionally rare and under-researched; while it has been reported at very low frequencies on many continents it is not always clear if the examples concerned have been screened for subclaids. Many are the DNA migration routes which all different. I personally "feel" mtDNA L3/R settled around the Mediterranean along with Y-DNA K, up the Nile at first to Egypt and the Levant. They were a "Harpoon"/Fishing Culture that spread west along the shores and islands of the Mediterranean. And as the sea levels were lower arrived in the Rhone Valley 50,000 ears ago. Their arrow heads have been found there dating at least 50kya along side Neanderthals. They spread at first to the Bay of Biscay as mtDNA R (and H) and spread east according to the archaeological dates of the earliest site; ending up in Russian Siberia. And when Younger Dryas hit, the R1 fled south off the Mammoth Steepes back to the Iberian and as far south as India even to the South East. It became very terrible in the "North". But, theories are at best educated guess and simply somebodies supposition. Hey man, it's a guess... and for each his own, peace bro.Delete
I disagree with you. R1b was in north Italy 14000 years ago so could it originate in further east more recently? So it clearly was present in Europe. Also these are hunter gatherers, their range was probably wide they also kept in contact with other groups. There is a clear archaeologucal record of people moving from iberia and south frsnce to Baltic in Magdalenians hence Swiderian culture. This seems to have included I2a and also R1b both groups seem to be well linked. Swiderian culture created Donet Dnieprs culture that led to Yamnaya. Epigravettians spread from south France to Ukraine so they are clearly genetically linked and R1b has been found in Italy and Balkans 14-8000 years ago. Its now said in Iberian Villabrunan and Magdalenians hunters mixed much earlier even 19000bc so hunters of isolated groups came back together. Its clear 7000 years ago Motala hunters had fair skin and blue eyes but WHG also had blue eyes and this spread rapidly east to west. WHGs had olive type skin, blue eyes and dark hair suggesting WHG might have had a variety of genes, in other words genes can spread without mass movements. R1b might very well be native to Europe but moved in and out as they were hunters they didnt live in one area all year. Western Europe was free of ice before east europe so it makes sense they moved north first. Its likely these various hunters kept in contact and didnt live as isolsted populations for longDelete
New Iberian Genetic studies are out that completely support the claims made here 4 yrs later in Spain, 2018. In a study of the Iberian Peninsula's History we find that Iberia had a 1000 yr history of warming weather after the Ice Age to develop advanced cultures the Northern clines didn't have. Now they've discovered that Northern Iberia had all the makings of being the roots of not only the Copper Age (oldest Copper mines in Iberia if not the World... recently just closed), but the Bronze Age & Iron Age as well. With lots of ancient Tin, Silver, Gold mines on the surface... that had been worked as well as other abundant metal deposits.Delete
Along w/ submerged Granite crevice smelting w/high force winds blowing up through them to burn hotter than smelting furnaces above ground. This has been proven that these Iberian R-1b Celts had phenomenal skills metal smithing art as well as weapons and don't forget about Celtic metal "Carnyx" that freaked the Romans out for 200 yrs of War along w/ Iron Clad wheels on Chariots.. the Romans weren't using yet either!
Mainly... we're looking at Proto-Celts indicating Pre-R1b inhabitants that were indeed in Northern Iberian Peninsula having mixed w/ Neanderthals long before. Interesting that only recently they've discovered broken crucibles used by Proto and Celtic People's around Castros (Celtic Hill Forts) w/ outcroppings of the Crystal form of surface Tin, that combined with copper to make bronze.
That they'd already been combining in crucibles found around these developed below ground smelting pits in the giant granite rocks w/ crevices for smelting metals at extremely high temperatures. These broken shards of crucibles used before the bronze age was seen elsewhere on the continent. We are finding they had mixed this surface Tin (crystal form) w/ copper that made Bronze dated before the Bronze Age in the colder parts Europe & Middle East!
Now science is telling us that although Iberia didn't export their genes like say Denmark/Scandinavia did to Iberia, during the Viking Conquest of Northern Iberia. But... apparently these Iberians did Export their Culture.. including their art, Glazed Crucibles/Beakers and Metallurgical Skills to the rest of Europe! ...perhaps also via boats/ships to the Middle East via the Phoenicians!
I agree with you. It completely makes sense!ReplyDelete
I don't know if this is still your position but I agree with your hypothesis.ReplyDelete
I personally think that R1b may have originated in or around Anatolia and a wave of migrants over differing periods followed from there on. I find it interesting that some European R1b samples have been found (one dating to around 4,150 BCE - El Trocos I believe?) which would have been around the same time as the R1b Steppe people were still near the Causcaus region?
Given what we know about the challenges of displacing wholesale populations, I find it very difficult to comprehend that from around 4200 - 2800 BCE, these people not only crossed the causcaus into central Europe but also managed to wipe out the opposition, install settlements, language, culture and establish a successful economy (supposedly wealthy, by all accounts) within the region in such a (relatively) short space of time? I accept that the hypothesis presupposes that they possessed superior (given the time) bronze age technology, but even the terrain at that time would have proved challenging to hordes of horse driven chariots full of equipment. How did they manage to install themselves seemingly so successfully within such a time-frame? They surely would have had to vastly outnumber the natives.
It is then proposed that they conquered Western Europe between 2900 and 500 BCE - and not only that, but established a totally dominant and formidable presence (if British and Iberian Y-haplogroup samples are anything to go by) that would remain unchallenged for almost another 2000 years.
For such a dominant R1b presence in Western Europe (seemingly unchanged by Viking and Anglo migrations), I find it very difficult to reconcile such an insurgency with the length of time proposed. Also, is there any archaeological evidence of mass slaughter that such a dominant presence would surely have necessitated?
Finally, (just being purely speculative and admittedly amateurish here), but look at Western European faces - and look at their supposed ancestors in the Steppes. Many, many Western European features comprise long, oval faces.
The Yamnaya features seem more atypical of modern day Causcaus faces. Look at portraits of Western Europeans spanning the last few centuries - in 600 years or so, these features do not appear to have changed that much, if at all.
I know this is highly speculative but is it remotely plausible that the Steppe traits would have transformed so drastically as to resemble modern day Western Europeans? Especially if it is also true that the mt haplogroup equivalent of the Steppe R1b variant is reportedly as high as 30 - 40% in some areas of Western Europe? Would we not see far more similarities with the original Steppe people?
I acknowledge that the Steppe males who tested positive for the R1b-Z2103 are distant relatives of modern day Europeans but I find it almost unfathomable that these people were able to overwhelmingly transform Europe culturally, economically and genetically within the space of less than 4000 years and also root themselves within the Iberian peninsula, whilst contributing to the development of around six distinct PIE cultures and languages in the process. Surely, such a cultural transformation occurs over thousands of years not just within two or three?
I think it is more likely that waves of migrations from the R1b heartland occurred over the course of 8000 years or so - including maritime excursions. I believe it is possible that back-to-back migrations to and from Iberia, France and Britain may contribute to the different "variations" of R1b we see across North, South, West and Central Europe. Tacitus gave support to a "cultural exchange" theory between the Britons and the Iberians and it has also been suggested that many people in Eastern England are descendants of various different waves of Anglo invaders, not just from the main invasions that occurred after the departure of the Roman legions from Britain.
R1b L-278 found in a Villabruna,Northeast Italy sample 14000 years old.Epi-Gravettian.ReplyDelete
Hi Ric, could you include your source?Delete
Very interesting find. Said to have possessed dark skin, blue eyes and curly black hair (a trait that is relatively uncommon amongst Europeans these days, although it is said to be quite common amongst the R1b "heartlands"). He predates the Yamna finds by around 4,000 years I believe.Delete
R* found within the Mal'ta Buret Culture near Lake Baikal in Southern Siberia +-24000 years ago.ReplyDelete
The form of western europeans seem the same then as now the only difference is light skin. Its possible these genes spread gradual without changing facial form. Light skin was in Motala individuals but not in WHG like La Brana at the same date. This could suggest the individuals are related but have adapted to different conditions or light skin gene was passed in significant numbers at that date. Also dairy farming might have passed the gene on later. Most WHG were still hunting meat at that date yet they had acquired blue eyes suggesting gradual gene change or lack of direct contact with paler skin genes further east. But its unlikely they failed to keep in contact with other hunters in other areas the populations were too small also WHG could have got middle east genes with groups further south this doesnt mean mass movements as the facial features varyDelete
The more ancient DNA evidence comes to light the more I think that R1b originated somewhere in and between the Pannonian Plain and the Crimea...ReplyDelete
It is interesting to note that the oldest MtDNA Haplogroup U6 was found in Romania at 36000 years ago. Today MtDNA Haplogroup U6 are spread all over the Sahara. This shows a probable migration from Romania to Africa. Could the ancestors of R1b(V88) have taken the same route to Africa much later ?ReplyDelete
I think the ancestors of R1b1b and R1b(V88) spread into Anatolia during the Mesolithic from the Balkans. And some of these early clads migrated as far as Kurdistan and Turkmenistan where they survived in relative isolation.R1b1a ancestors migrated towards the Crimea and did not go into Anatolia with the others.
As far as I could read there were no R1a or R1b found in Neolithic samples of Anatolia or Iran sofar. The closest was R2 in Iran.
My speculation about El Trocs is that his ancestors were pushed West from Anatolia during the early Neolithic.Or his ancestors migrated through the Green Sahara towards the West and entered Spain via Gibraltar with their cattle as some papers about Cattle DNA show...ReplyDelete
I think the answer about how Indo-Europeans managed to become dominant in Europe is partly answered by a paper about Pneumonic and Bubonic plague. I will try and find it for you.
The other thing is the Mass Graves in Germany at Talheim and others. This shows that the Neolithic peoples became very competitive and Steppe migrants can not be blamed for all the slaughter...
And something else to think about:Delete
referente Haplogroup - U4 que apresenta minhas ancentrais não consigo entender como chegou a penisula iberica sendo que a minoria da população iberica possui este Haplogroup - U4.ReplyDelete
chez les basque on trouve des taux pour U5b comparable à ceux du nord-est de l'Europe et parmi les plus fort taux, c'est encore une des bizarrerie de ce peuple qui présente un ADN MtDNA atypique avec les peuples du sud de l'Europe.Delete
All that theory, which is based on haplotyping of modern, present-time inhabitants, could be wrong. In other words, what about the ANCIENT DNA RECORDS? I have the impression that in literature we have only dozens, perhaps one hundred but definitely not thousands, of published results of ancient Y DNA on which support our claims.ReplyDelete
For instance, how can you be sure that R1b is the oldest in Spain? I mean, do you have the evidence of ancient DNA? (I remind you that one report is NOT enough!). Or you are just speculating, like most people so far has done?
I insist, unless you have the evidence in your hand, please make sure to clarify that you are talking about a HYPOTHESIS, which needs to be proven.
My hypothesis is that R1b represent the barbarian germanics who invaded all Western Europe. Do I have the evidence? Nope! it is just a hypothesis, like yours who says exactly the opposite.
But again, if my hypothesis proves wrong, fine!
vous avez raison , nous devons remettre en cause et ne pas être rigide, effectivement rien ne va dans le sens de R1b plus ancien que 3500 en Espagne au contraire il est plus ancien en Europe de l'est et Allemagne/Autriche et surtout Ukraine, où on le trouve plus anciennement et avant sa subdivision entre U106/P312/DF100.Delete
Non, n'avez-vous pas lu les commentaires de Ric Hern sur le R1b trouvé a Villabruna (nord-este Italie)qui date 14.000 a.j.c.?Delete
Actually there is already evidence that the reason we see no migration of any peoples out of Iberia, that instead what they are finding in more recent studies, is that it seems obvious now that the most advanced Celtic Cultures, as well as being where Proto-Celts also had a presence, Iberia seems to have had it's own roots in Driving Celtic Culture, Ideas, Metallurgy and most of all may have even began the Beaker Culture and exported it along with their Culture, Art, Music, Hill Forts and the dominant Rock House villages.Delete
Remember.... when talking about Iberia, you have to include several geographical facts. First off it's a land riddled with Caves... that are not only homes of Great ancient Cave Art, but some still have exposed mineral veins. There are an incredible array of colors from minerals, from Gold, Tin, Copper (2nd most productive in history till it closed in the 1990's), iron, etc. Both forms of Tin are easily available and ancient Celtic Iberians are now seen as having already went from being Proto-Celts like the Lithuanians, to discovering surface placer metal deposits, that made it easier to discover not just single metals, but advance metallurgy to new levels.
How? By having already learned to harden Gold by adding Silver. Both of which can be found all over Iberia and like in Leone..... (where the Romans Stole all theirs from) Gold Nuggets could be picked up off the ground. That mining operation the Romans built there wasn't because discovered it first. It was because the Romans were amazed by all the Gold the Celts had, that they'd only heard about from the Greeks, Carthaginians and the Phoneticians before all of them!
Mixed metal slag and broken crucibles have been found in Northwest Iberia. There are Crystal form of Tin in outcroppings all around many large Celtic Hill Forts. And most of all they had to have already been able to raise temperatures to glaze their own Beaker Pottery. This is why research now says that Iberian Celts Exported their culture, art and music, but never exported it's People's Genetics anywhere in Europe!
By iberia it could be near Basque area or north spain and south france as pyrennes stops movement of people more or north iberia via coastsDelete
ALLL HEEEILLL INDONESIA!!!!!ALLAHU AKBAR....ReplyDelete
Take your fake religion, God and prophet somwhere else you hybrid mongoloid.Delete
la date de 40 000 ans pour R1b est une pure fantaisie, l'estimation scientifique du CNRS est aux alentour de 12000/17000 ans et probablement 14000 ans la séparation du groupe R1* et ensuite 4500 ans la naissance de P312 puis 3000 ans la séparation des branches atlantiques L21/df27, l'arrivée massive dans le sud de l'Espagne de df27 date de la reconquista (épuration ethnique et religieuse) avec les troupes du roi d'Aragon. L'arrivée de M65 (celte ibérique) serait ancienne de 3000/3500 ans avec l'age du bronze dans la péninsule ibérique, l'arrivée des tribus gauloises (basques ou Aushi) dans le centre nord de l’Espagne se produit à la fin du septième siècle avec la défaite des wisigoths.ReplyDelete
Pourquoi vouloir réinventer l'histoire puisque elle existe déjà.
La date de 40 000 ans pour R1b est une pure fantaisie, l'estimation scientifique du CNRS est aux alentour de 12000/17000 ans et probablement 14000 ans la séparation du groupe R1 * et ensuite 4500 ans la naissance de P312 puis moins que 3000 ans la séparation Des branches atlantiques L21 / df27, l'arrivée massive dans le sud de l'Espagne de df27 date de la reconquista (épuration ethnique et religieuse) avec les troupes du roi d'Aragon. L'arrivée de M65 (celte ibérique) est une ancienne de 3000/3500 ans avec l'âge du bronze dans la péninsule ibérique, l'arrivée des tribus gauloises (basques ou Aushi) dans le centre nord de l'Espagne se produit à la Fin du septième siècle avec la défaite des wisigoths.ReplyDelete
Pourquoi vouloir réinventer l'histoire par elle existe déjà.
Martin étudie un peu plus l'Histoire d'Espagne puisque toi tu mélange tout, repasse le dates parce-que tu n'en réussis un.ReplyDelete
The fact is that Andalusia was resettled by Castile, and the LaTene culture arriving during the 5th century BC. Cunliffe and Sykes question the origin of the Celts coming from Austria and Switzerland, the issue is far from being settled...
The first R1b of Spain was the V88 that was an african haplogroup shared with LebanonDelete
It was an excellent information for testing for a DNA test with such coding gives useful which helps to cure some disease through the test results.ReplyDelete
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