Sunday, July 21, 2013

Conquering William's DNA

   One of my favorite aspects of y-DNA is that it’s used to prove or disprove that two men with the same last name are closely related. Two family lines with a similar surname can figure out if they have a common ancestor. The DNA matches or it doesn’t. What do you do if the common ancestor you are looking for doesn’t have a surname? If you are researching the British Isles, the surname you are looking for is probably less than 1,000 years old.


   What were the surnames associated with William the Conqueror? To start, who was William the Conqueror? William the ‘bastard’ was born about 1028 in Normandy, the illegitimate son of Robert I, Duke of Normandy, and Herleva. William was the 3rd great grandson of Rollo, the Viking who harassed the French so much that they gave him Normandy in order to make him stop.

    In 1066, when King Edward ‘the confessor’ of England died, William was a potential heir to the English crown. When he didn’t get the nod, he took the crown by force by defeating and killing King Harold at the Battle of Hastings.

    Finding the DNA of William the Conqueror is not that easy. He has no documented living male-line descendants. King Henry I was his last legitimate offspring. If you look in the phone book, you won’t find too many names listed under Conqueror, William T. That makes asking for a DNA sample problematic.

    We have to look at the entire line of Dukes from the House of Normandy to identify the surnames that they would eventually adopt. The line from Rollo to William looks like this – Rollo (846-931) > William I (900-942) > Richard I (933-996) > Richard II (978-1026) > Robert I (1000-1035) > William II (1028-1087). To start, there is some evidence, true or not, that the surnames Clifford, Devereaux and St. Clair have a direct connection back to Richard I and Richard II. It’s not my goal to prove anyone’s genealogy. Many medieval genealogies are pure fiction, geneamyth. Although, with ever story there may be a piece of the truth. Some of William’s companions at the Battle of Hastings were his cousins and it would have made sense for him to surround himself with kin. I collected those names and others that had a tenuous connection.

    I began the process with the following 27 names; Bartelott, Beaumont, Bruce, Clifford, Corbett, D’Arcy, Devereaux, Giffard, Hereford, Lindsay, Molyneaux, Montgomery, Mortimer, Mowbray, Neville, Norman, Norton, Osbern, Pearsall, Ramsey, Spencer, St. Clair, Stewart, Sutton, Talbott, Umfreville and Warren. While this is not an exhaustive list, it did provide 3,800 records to sift through.

    DNA records for these surnames were collected from publically available sources and sorted into haplogroups. Remember, everyone is related. It’s just a question of how far back in time they share a common ancestor. Members of haplogroups I and J may share an ancestor about 30,000 years ago, but my goal is to find as many surnames that have a common ancestor about 1,000 years ago. So, DNA comparison was limited to within haplogroups. Immediately, groups E1b, G2a, I2, J and R1a were eliminated for having no cross surname relationships.

    The first likely candidate was haplogroup I1. I1 would make sense. It is a typical Scandinavian group and Rollo is supposed to be either Norwegian or Danish. There was some good cross surname relationships among 8 of the 27 surnames. More analysis showed that they didn’t form a tight clan and that their common ancestor would have been over 1,250 years ago. That predates Rollo. This doesn’t completely rule out haplogroup I1, but my expectation was that there would be a higher number of surnames and a common ancestor between Rollo and William.

    The next candidate was group R1b, the most populous haplogroup in Europe and having a potential Scandinavian or continental Europe origin. This group clustered well across 25 of the 27 surnames and revealed a genetically related clan. To make sure that this wasn’t a false positive or something symptomatic about the large R1b population, I took a random sample of British Isles R1b y-DNA and ran the same comparison. The random sample did not group well and actually formed multiple clusters.



    This looks very positive for the R1b group. Twenty-one of the surnames are tightly related enough that their common ancestor lived 1,080 years ago (933 AD), coincidentally the birth year of Richard I. All common ancestor calculations come with a margin of error. I’d say this estimate is plus or minus a generation. Clifford, Devereaux and St. Clair, with their genealogical connection remain in this group as well as Beaumont, Giffard, Montgomery, Mortimer, Osbern and Warren.

    The odd thing about this second group of names is that they all, genealogically, connect back to Gunnora, wife/concubine of Richard I. Beaumont and Giffard are descendants of Duvelina, a sister of Gunnora. Osbern is a descendant of Herfast, a brother of Gunnora. None of this common y-DNA came from Gunnora or her sister; being female, they don’t have y-DNA to pass down. We have to look for a common male donor. My theory is that the practice of droit du seigneur – ‘right of the lord’ or primae noctis – ‘right of the first night’ was being used by Richard to increase his genetic success.

    Do you have a connection to William the Conqueror? There is an estimate that 25% of the population of England is related to Bill the Conq. From a y-DNA perspective, this percentage would be lower. If you have one of these surnames; Bartelott, Beaumont, Bruce, Clifford, Corbett, D’Arcy, Devereaux, Giffard, Molyneaux, Montgomery, Mortimer, Norton, Osbern, Pearsall, Ramsey, Spencer, St. Clair, Stewart, Talbott, Umfreville (Humphrey) or Warren and match the 37-marker William the Conqueror Modal Haplotype (WCMH), you may be related.



DYS393

DYS390

DYS19

DYS391

DYS385a

DYS385b

DYS426

DYS388

DYS439

DYS389i

DYS392

DYS389ii

13

24

14

11

11

14

12

12

12

13

13

29



DYS458

DYS459a

DYS459b

DYS455

DYS454

DYS447

DYS437

DYS448

DYS449

DYS464a

DYS464b

DYS464c

DYS464d

17

9

10

11

11

25

15

19

29

15

15

17

17



DYS460

Y-GATA-H4

YCAIIa

YCAIIb

DYS456

DYS607

DYS576

DYS570

CDYa

CDYb

DYS442

DYS438

11

11

19

23

15

15

17

17

36

37

12

12
 

   You might match the WCMH within a few steps and not have one of those surnames. The wealthy practiced polygyny. They had as many mistresses as they could afford. The illegitimate male offspring would have generated countless undocumented surnames and carry these same y-DNA markers.

    I can’t say that this is exactly William the Conqueror’s y-DNA markers. These values are a mode, the numbers that appear most frequently in the related R1b sample of 152 records. The results that I have found are based on my analysis of about 3,800 y-DNA samples and form a good correlation. New data in the future may change the results.

    The techniques that I have used are similar to the ones used to identify Carthaigh (McCarthy King of Desmond), Niall of the Nine Hostages and Genghis Khan. I predict that as the DNA databases grow, more discoveries like this will be found. My next projects are to determine Rollo’s origin (see Exploring Rollo...) and Charlemagne’s haplotype.

Reference:

Maglio, MR (2013) A Y-Chromosome Signature of Polygyny in Norman England (
Link)



©Michael R. Maglio and OriginsDNA

88 comments:

  1. Excellent and informative article. I have both autosomal results with Ancestry and FTDNA. My g g grandmother is a Clifford from Ireland. Do you have a site or group I can add myself to? Would love to be in the mix.

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    Replies
    1. Thank you, I don't have a group for collecting more data. If you are ever able to get some of your Clifford y DNA, please compare it to the results that I have listed. Good luck.
      -Mike

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    2. Hello, research of my lineage leads me to believe I am a descendant - not much different from markers posted. Reverse- engineered from a related vicar general of 1500's, found through deep research to be of a 1,000+ yr line of clerics. U4G6F ySearch

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    3. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    4. Geni says William is my 24th great grandfather we have a lot of lietch in family tree related to Lamont Lamont Biggs Cassidy.i have DNA tests from ancestry plus waiting on results from familytreedna on YDNA resultsWilliam "the Conqueror", king of England is Michael French/ Biggs' 24th great grandfather!
      Michael French/ Biggs → Jervis Deane Biggs → Olive Elizabeth Biggs → Agnes Ann Cassidy → George Lamont →
      You your father his mother
      Agnes Lamont, Free "Cabolia" 1833 ­ {Profile has Multiple Parents} → his mother
      her mother her father
      John Leitch, (son of Hughes LEITCH and Mary GILLIES) → her father
      Hugh Leitch, {Profile has Multiple Parents}
      → John Leitch, (son of John Henry LEITCH and Chyristian COWEN) his father
      → John Hector Leitch → his father
      his father
      Hectour Leitch → his father
      Christopher Leitch → his father
      Wylliam Lech
      his father
      → William Leiche, Sheriff of Chester his father
      → John Leiche, of Carden → his father
      John Leiche of Slielfe (Halifax) → his father
      John Leche, Under Sheriff of Cheshire → his father
      John "Irelonde" de Leche → his father
      John Leche, Rector of Bassingbourn, Cambridge
      his father
      William de Warenne, 5th Earl of Surrey
      his father
      Sir William de Warenne
      her father
      Lucy de Carwarthyn → his mother
      his father
      Henry I "Beauclerc", King of England → her father
      → John de Warenne, 6th Earl of Surrey → his father

      → Hamelin de Warenne, 4th Earl of Surrey
      → Adelaide de Angers (Possibly Empress Mathilda) → his mother
      William "the Conqueror", king of England
      his father

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    5. on ancestry i match Spencer Churchill Windsor plus a few others so it seems a pattern is emerging that seems to add weight to the Geni Claim

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    7. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    8. Just curious "underdog" as am a Specer doing deep DNA research, esp. linking to Althorp/Marlborough Spencers & Spencer-Churchills. When you say you "match" a SPENCER CHURCHILL WINDSOR....Not sure Whom you are speaking of--or did you simply mean you "match" BOTH the Spencer and the Churchill clans (one of which, Lady Diana Spencer, becomes a Windsor upon marriage)? Also do you mean you match under a yDNA surname "marker" DNA test? If you could email me direct,at: JazzFusion.Gal@Gmail.com ...I'd be VERY INTERESTED in hearing from you. I also am at work on an Australian SPENCER project. Thanks for posting, and hope to hear from you. Take Care, Vienna SPENCER

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    9. AM clad FROM TEXAS, THANKS TO DR ONIHA WHO HELP ME BRING MY HUSBAND BACK, MY HUSBAND LEFT ME WITH THREE KIDS, FOR ANOTHER YOUNG GIRL, FOR OVER TWO YEARS, I TRIED ALL I COULD TO SETTLED OUR DIFFRENCES, BUT IT YIELDED NO RESULT, I WAS THE ONE TAKING CARE OF THE CHILDREN ALONE, UNTIL ONE DAY, I CAME IN CONTACT WITH SOME ARTICLES ONLINE, CONTAINING HOW DR ONIHA HAS HELP SO MANY LOVERS AND FAMILY REUNION AND REUNIT AGAIN, AND I DECIDED TO CONTACT HIM, AND HE CAST HIS SPELL ON MY HUSBAND, WITHIN FIVE DAYS, MY HUSBAND RAN BACK HOME, AND WAS BEGGING ME AND THE KIDS FOR FORGIVENESS, IN CASE YOU ARE PASSING THROUGH SIMILAR PROBLEMS, AND YOU WANTS TO CONTACT DR ONIHA, YOU CAN REACH HIM VIA HIS CONTACT NUMBER, ON CALL OR WHATSAP +2347089275769 OR EMAIL DRONIHASPELL@YAHOO.COM

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  2. I have several documented lines back to these philandering kings, thanks to Gary Boyd Roberts. My paternal great grandmother is a Warren born in Yorkshire, and my father is R1b. Along these lineages are several of the names you listed: St. Clair/Sinkler, Osbern/Osborne, Beaumont, Spencer and Humphrey. However, my Dad passed away ten years ago and cannot donate any more DNA.

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    Replies
    1. Hi Heather,

      I was hoping that the Wilkinson DNA project had members that were related to you. I couldn't find a connection. Do you have a 2nd or 3rd cousin you can test?

      -Mike

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  3. I have just compared the Y chart above with my deceased husband who is a good match with Sinclair as in the Sinclair DNA project. No one knows why. We have a brick wall with his Horttor ancestor b 1845. His maternal Canfield line as traced by the Canfield Family Association several years ago went back to William the Conqueror. Interesting article and one my children will be interested to follow. Beverly Horttor momdad.horttor@gmail.com

    My husband, H David Horttor tested with SMGF, FTdna and 23andMe
    Kit # for FTdna is F120270 23andMe is M193005

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  4. This is fascinating. I always was intrigued by the interplay between surnames and titles. We have English ancestors with surnames Patey, Boone, Croft, Pinckney, Johnson. Scots: Fraser. Irish: Lynch. There are a number of St. Clair /Sinkler surnames along the way. And some Montgomery surnames, too.

    Really interesting to tease out the surnames like this!

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  5. Interesting! I suggest you try Brian Boru, since 2014 is the 1000 year anniversary of his death. Sir Conor O'Brien would be the direct living descendant. Currently FamilyTree DNA is doing the O'Brien surname project which has almost 300 participants.

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    Replies
    1. Great suggestion. Brian Boru would make a wonderful case study.

      Thanks,
      Mike

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  6. Hi, my brother was tested and he had Y-Dna:
    R1b1b2a*
    Best Regards
    Laila

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  7. Hello, I am Dale C. Rice 1948 and a direct Descendnant of Perrott ap Rice 1600 who's family traces back to 30 AD. I tested out I-1 Haplogroup, origionating in Northern France and my 37 markers are 9 exact matches, 14 1 segment shorter, 9, 2 steps shorter , 1 marker 3 steps shorter and only 4 sites have segments of 1 lengthend segment that the reconstructed Y that you show above in your article....If interested you can see results of my test at Family DNA if you so wish...Kind Regards DC Rice 1948 Nebraska Rices

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  8. SINCLAIR
    Sinclair Family of Caithness is most likely NOT directly related to William C. The Sinclair group sharing some 14 different haplotypes of dna do not relate to each other, The Caithness group,most likely to relate back to the Sinclairs of Roslin Scotland and the famous Rosslyn Chapel have the following dna results,testing done by Family Tree Dna,

    R1b1a2a1a1a4 /// SNP Tested Z9>Z30>Z2>Z7>Z8>Z1>Z346+, Z343-
    Current SNP designation is Z346*

    PANEL 1 (1-12)
    Marker DYS393 DYS390 DYS19** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II***
    Value 13 23 14 11 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29

    PANEL 2 (13-25)
    Marker DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 DYS449 DYS464
    Value 16 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 15-16-17-18

    PANEL 3 (26-37)
    Marker DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438
    Value 11 10 19-23 17 14 19 17 38-39 12 12

    The Sinclairs are French/Germanic...possibly old Franks

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  9. I believe that the majority of participants in the Family Tree DNA Montgomery Surname DNA Project are J2 with an only slightly fewer number of participants being R1b1. There is one participant who is J2 with a strong paper trail connection to Hugh Montgomery, 1st Earl of Eglinton and from there, historical records provide evidence that the 1st Earl descends from Roger de Montgomerie, cousin of William the Conquerer. There is good reason for much debate on whether the blood line from Roger de Montgomerie runs J2 or R1b1, so I am curious how you settled on Montgomery's as R1b1.

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    Replies
    1. Much more research needs to be done here, as haplogroup I2b was eliminated as having no surname match. My paternal group is I2b and the surname is Montgomery.

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  10. I am in the U152 project on FTDNA which is a descendant of R1b.
    My cluster's (A:a:a:a: U152>YCA=19,22+dys447=27) common ancestor is 1,000-1,100 AD. http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx?section=yresults Until we get a sample of Will's DNA an open mind is recommended!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Not necessarily as we can work from any of his offspring

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  11. Hi Michael,

    Great approach to DNA and the Conqueror "SuperFamily" of surnames.

    I run the Sinclair / St. Clair / Sinceler DNA study. We've found 12 distinct lineages. One of those is mentioned in a comment above. They have the best chance of connecting to our Roslin family who built Roslin Chapel and castle.

    Another of our branches, discovered this year, is called the Herdmanston Lineage. They were the first of our family to arrive in Scotland, 1162, on land given by the de Moreville family. Curiously, among their SNP matches are names like Mandeville. This got me quite interested and we've since ordered FTDNA's Big Y test on this lineage to look for more recent SNPs than their L11 / P310. If that match to de Mandeville remains tight, then we'll know an approximate date for a most recent common ancestor.

    I ran your WC Modal against our study of over 200 members in several different ways:

    First, working left to right. This produced a 31/37 match with our Glasgow Lineage (L21, L193). That immigrant came over in 1698. We've got some evidence that his line went back to Northumberland England before the 1500s. We're off on these particular markers from your WC Modal:
    Our DYS 456 - 570 = 17,16,19,17
    CDYa-b = 36, 37

    Then, allowing for a mutation on DYS 390, which we've seen in our Caithness Lineage.
    I allowed for DYS390 to equal all options.
    I allowed for DYS458 to equal 16 & 17.
    DYS 389ii to equal all options.
    DYS439 equal all options.
    DYS 391 equal all options.
    DYS19 equal all options.
    With all of this, I still end up with the L21 group in our Sinclair / St. Clair DNA study. Very interesting.

    A great next step in your research on this WC Modal would be to look for common SNPs. That would help get to the actual common ancestor. For instance, L193 is believed to have mutated between 800 and 1,000 years ago. I highly doubt you'd find it among all the surnames you've looked at but, based on your research, somewhere "upstream" of L193 there should be a common ancestor in the L21 groups.

    Thanks,

    Steve St. Clair
    http://www.StClairResearch.com

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    Replies
    1. Hi Steve,

      Thank you for your comments. I am continuing to refine this work by moving from a 37 marker model to a 67 marker model. The preliminary SNP data has an L21 correlation. Once I have completed the analysis, the modal haplotype, in theory, would be that of Rollo. The next step would be to determine if Rollo was from Denmark or Norway.

      -Mike

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  12. Just as a side note, the Y-DNA of the reacher is?

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    Replies
    1. Hi,

      My haplogroup is G or specifically G-Z726. I have no vested interest or bias in which haplogroup William the Conqueror belongs. Excellent question. It is important to be as impartial as possible while doing research.

      Thanks,
      Mike

      Delete
  13. have a de warenne though, is it the same, but they are related , but not so Close, he was a brother of one in that family. åsa

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  14. I would like to see this same model used on the de Hauteville family. I don't think there is enough data to do it though. You need a bunch of people with the surnames Altaville, de Gesualdo, Geraci and maybe Tankerville, Tancarville, Chamberlain

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  15. I was wondering if you know if a person by the name of niclas zincler grim markusson ulmoen oyteigen is a relative of the st.clairs. He was born in Sel norway in 1741.

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  16. Hello: My family were likely part of the Norman invaders with the Norman name “Rickards”. As compared to the above WCMH markers above, my values are: 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 17 17 36 37 12 12. Question: Does standard makers exist for people of Norman ancestry? Have you compiled Norman population dna data to compare to the WCMH values? What is your quick analysis of my values – am I within the 25% of the population of England that is related to Bill the Conqueror?

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  17. Hi: Fascinating reading and I can see various surnames found in Percy history. I am either a Y descendant of William de Percy a cousin of WTC via Rollo or of Josceline de Louvaine a Y descendant of Charlemagne who married a Percy heiress C1150 which may be helpful. I am R1B-U152 tested at Leicester University by Dr Trudi King. Charles Percy

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  18. What of the illegitimate line of Peveral?

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    Replies
    1. My family traces back to William Peveral according to family history, I thought nothing of it, until I did a DNA test, and the matches I have are all Pepper/Peppers etc. Our family motto is Courage Sans Peur, similar to Richard Sans Peur, and we are Z251+

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  19. I've tested my yDNA for 67 STR markers on FTDNA and am not too far from those markers listed. I've tested SNP's for L21>DF13>Z16500>Z17901+ aka R1b1a2a1a2c1n1 and someone with patrilineal ancestry from the Breton Marches also tested for Z17901+. While my two other closest matches on FTDNA for yDNA have North German ancestry. While another is a Pitts from America with ancestral patriline origin unknown. While they are Pitt(s) descended from the Norman Gervase de la Puette. As for my own surname Holt I don't match any other Holt's for yDNA on FTDNA. And there's an old family rumour that my great-grandfather Holt was born via a non paternity event.

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  20. Hello! Love the article. A little too technical for me though... so are you saying Rollo and William the Conqueor are from the L21 branch of R1b, then? I would have assumed from Denmark U106 would have been more likely. Does that mean most of those Anglo-Norman surnames Rollo descendants) in the study were L21? All the numbers in those markers confuse me. Thanks! :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The article was so far from any historical fact that it was virtually fiction, created to fill the lines between the DNA dialogue.. Rollo, just a pest harnessing the French King until the king got Rollo off his case by giving the guy land.. Makes me so angry when ppl create their own story of events. Rollo was a great Man, with many great man around him. The French King must have realised this as Rollo was given a title and land in exchange for creating a fortification over the Somme near Le Treport. A main estuary leading into France that more Vikings were using to get into France. A Charter was drawn up over this and I can post a link to that if you don’t believe my historical account .. My ancestors too have none of the names mentioned lol; however, we were known to be related. We arrived here at the side of WTC, thanked our ancestor, Robert Pierpont, for his part in the Battle of Hastings were first given land, we named, Hurst Pierrepoint .. The rest is history..
      My Haplogroup is Rlb2

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  21. Hi, I just found out this unusual information yesterday. Sometimes when you can't find the direct line of someone you can find it by going backward or sideways. Through my Mother's line there are 29 unbroken male descendants from King Fornjot (Williams oldest Ancestor) all the way down to the Dutton line then a few females break the line up down to my Mother. While I do not know specifically the descent of William's living Male descendants it is probably easy enough to find male descendants of Peter Dutton 12th Lord Dutton's living today. Some should be carrying the DNA of William's direct Male Ancestor King Fornjot. This is a good place to start for you can trace Peter Dutton all the way to Fornjot who is William's oldest known ancestor.
    http://www.geni.com/people/Peter-Dutton-12th-Lord-of-Dutton/6000000000490954140?through=6000000001233379149
    Peter Dutton, 12th Lord of Dutton
    his father → Sir Edward de Dutton
    his father → Sir Thomas Dutton
    his father → Sir Hugh Dutton, 9th Lord of Dutton
    his father → Hugh de Dutton, 8th Lord of Dutton
    his father → Sir Thomas de Dutton, 7th Lord of Dutton
    his father → Sir Hugh de Dutton, 5th Lord of Dutton
    his father → Hugh de Dutton, 4th Lord of Dutton
    his father → Hugh de Dutton, 3rd Lord of Dutton
    his father → Hugh FItzodard de Dutton, 2nd Lord of Dutton
    his father → Odard, 1st Lord of Dutton
    his father → Ivo DE DUTTON, Viscount Cotentin
    his father → Niel II (III) de Saint-Sauveur, vicomte de Cotentin
    his father → Neil (I) II, viscount de Saint-Sauveur
    his father → Roger de Saint-Sauveur, vicomte du Cotentin
    his father → "Nigel" Neil I, vicomte de Saint-Sauveur
    his father → Richard I de Saint Sauveur Viscount of Contentin
    his father → Malahulc / Haldrick Eysteinsson
    his father → Eystein Ivarsson «the Noisy» Glumra
    his father → Ivar Halfdansson, Opplendingejarl
    his father → Halfdan "Gamle" Sveidasson
    his father → Sveidi Heytirsson, Norse King, c. 650
    his father → Heytir Gorrsson, King of Kvenland
    his father → Gorr Thorasson, King of Kvenland
    his father → Thorri Snærsson, King of Kvenland
    his father → Snær Jokulsson, King of Kvenland
    his father → Frosti / Jøkull Karasson, king in Kvenland
    his father → Kari "Wind" Fornjotsson, King of Kvenland
    his father → King Fornjot "The Ancient Giant" of Kvenland
    By using tools like gedmatch one would probably find that Descendant's of Fornjot including William would have Icelandic, Norwegian and possibly Finnish, Scottish or Orkney as well as Swedish background. Heritage origins might place them in More Og Romsdal, a place some of these Descendants came from; Kvenland, William has lot's of descendants but even when you trace his Royal line it already starts to break when you get to Empress Matilda.

    Just for fun I searched for a Male Dutton on FTDNA and found one, a Fourth Cousin which would put him in the right time frame for my Dutton line. Our match was on Chromosome #1 at a length of 10cm. This may or may not be relevant. So are all Dutton's descendants of King Fornjot? The pedigree says this is true but only if from the Noble Dutton line. However, depending on how one Dutton derived his DNA for he could just as easily be a descendant of High King Brian Boru (One of his 12th Grandfather's) a popular RM222 Haplogroup type as I found this Dutton to be. Is King Fornjot an Ancestor of William the Conqueror? Historical information says this is true. What Haplogroup would he belong to? Norwegian DNA groups may have the best answer based on locality. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/norway/about/results
    Hope this helps in your research.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I am a Frost and our family heritage was that William was a decendent of Frosti of Finland through Scalf his daughter in Denmark after her migration and escape from Agne of Sweden..

      Delete
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  23. I liked your article. It seems that I might not be apart of these super cluster families. My haplogroup is R-Z2396. I was told that very few kits will be positive for it. So I suspect that Z2396 will have no connection to William or Rollo. Z2396 is said to from Sweden? Here are my 1-37 dys markers.

    13 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 12 13 13 31
    19 8-10 11 11 24 15 19 31 14-14-17-17
    11 11 19-23 15 14 16 18 36-38 1

    ReplyDelete
  24. I was born a Montgomery and have worked hard on our family tree. Documentation for the Montgomery's ends around 1845 and I made some tentative connections using advice from other genealogists and circumstantial evidence. However, that line should be J-M172 and our haplogroup turns out to be R-M269. I only tested for the first 12 but they are very close to William the Conq. Two markers are off by one.
    13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30

    According to my research William is my 21st GG via my paternal grandmother of the Bean (MacBean) Clan. I have fairly good confidence about that line.

    I had always assumed that my line would go back to the 3 Rogers de Montgomerie who were closely associated with William the Conqueror and gained their lands and titles from their association with him and his conquests.

    Can anyone tell me their haplogroup?

    ReplyDelete
  25. I am patiently waiting for DNA to bring out the secrets and not-so-secret secrets as this service gets more proficient.My family date back to John Warren born 1617 probably at Ashburton in Devon. I believe that his father was the celebrated [by most American Warrens] Christopher Warren. My DNA [from Marnhull in Dorset] appears to be R-M269 which is the same haplogroup recorded for William De Warren, General at Hastings and cousin to William the Conqueror. At this moment I claim only my forebear John b 1617 d 1698 but believe that my line goes back through Christopher Warren b 1585 [married Alice Webb] to Rollo the Danish Knight that terrorized France. If anyone can assist with the family of Christopher Warren of the visitations it would be nice. The work of Reverend Thomas Warren [History of the Warren Family] has the family wrong and I believe that the mix up with another Waren Family was caused by a late entry in the Visitations record. I truly think that DNA will provide answers, they hasve a thigh bone of the Conqueror and also bones from William De Warren and his wife Gundrada [daughter of the Conqueror] and of Matilda the Conqueror's wife, so why do they not take samples from the bones so that originators DNA can be shown?

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  26. Also, there is a huge controversy over the parentage of Gundrada, wife of William De Warren. William the Conqueror claimed her as Filae miea [my daughter] in charters and at her wedding to William De Warren. Gundrada's marble slab that covered her grave is identical to her mother in Normandy. The controversy was started by a Norman hating Ordericus Vitalis who at 70 years old did a history on the conqueror. Ordericus made so many errors in his history that one wonders how modern day historians could be taking him seriosly. Then again, British grudges are long held, hurry up DNA.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Hi, I had my brother (who is a Sinclair) DNA tested with FamilyTreeDNA (37 markers - I-M253). My family documents only go to the 1820's in Ontario, Canada. But I was told we were we descended from the Sinclair family in Exeter, New Hampshire, USA, who are suppose to be descended from William the Conqueror.
    WANDA SINCLAIR
    Rexdale, Ontario]
    wanda_sinclair@hotmail.com

    ReplyDelete
  28. My email is robert.robinsonj63@gmail.com I am a direct decendant of the kings of Kvenland, Fornjot "The Ancient Giant" Forn Jotson, King of Kvenland 160-250

    40th great-grandfather of wife of 3rd cousin 1x removed of husband of great-grandmother

    ReplyDelete
  29. You may want to add WARMAN to the "surnames; Bartelott, Beaumont, Bruce, Clifford, Corbett, D’Arcy, Devereaux, Giffard, Molyneaux, Montgomery, Mortimer, Norton, Osbern, Pearsall, Ramsey, Spencer, St. Clair, Stewart, Talbott, Umfreville (Humphrey) or Warren and match the 37-marker William the Conquer"

    Warman is a Parentage ..
    13-24-14-10-11-14-12-12-12-13-13-29-17 which is R1b1a2a1a1 and is upstream from the R1b1a2a1a1a4 .referenced above.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Do you have a connection to William the Conqueror yes so does Pasgen ap Urien and Warman

      Delete
  30. See http://no-tie.com/DNA-WilliamDeConqueror.jpg

    ReplyDelete
  31. Warman is R1b1a2a1a1
    Sinclair is R1b1a2a1a1a4
    http://no-tie.com/DNA-WilliamDeConqueror.jpg

    ReplyDelete
  32. Don't know where I might stand in all this. My Ancestry DNA test show I'm mostly Scandinavian,English,Celt,etc. My surname is Bullen or Boleyn as cousin Anne would have it. Paternal grandmother is Bartlett. Maternal line is Ramsey, Van de veer,Phillips, Beale etc.
    They all emigrated to the colonies early to mid-17th century. Some say Jamestown but that includes native american if I run for office. Any suggestions to verify these connections. Thanks, Thomas A. Bullen, Esq.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Beale married George Washington son.or grandson I have the docs somewhere.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Beale doc http://www.no-tie.com/SarahBeallmarriedGeorgeWashington2ndson.jpg

    ReplyDelete
  35. Beale doc http://www.no-tie.com/SarahBeallmarriedGeorgeWashington2ndson.jpg

    ReplyDelete
  36. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1675738026022229&set=g.1606145682988858&type=1&theater

    ReplyDelete
  37. Very interesting!
    Geoffrey de mandeville was the coomander in the invasion/ battle at Hastings, therefore I would have thought they were related to King William1....

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Karen, I have a DNA match with a Kingham whom states the line is of de Mandeville outlaw Earl of Essex. Coincidentally I also have a Coman/ Comyn match. My Massey/ Mace line is related to le Goz or Hugh Lupus d' Avaranches whom gave 9 Lordships in Cheshire/ Chester to Hamo/ Hammond de Massey/ Mascy. The Norman Dukes all married Conteville/ Comyn/ de Burgh/ Burgos women. My Guillaume de La Ferte Mace married a Muriel de Conteville. Robert de Conteville a.k.a. de Mortain/ Mortagne was brother of Odo Bishop of Bayeux. (Conteville line) jdmassey73@gmail.com

      Delete
    2. Karen, I have a DNA match with a Kingham whom states the line is of de Mandeville outlaw Earl of Essex. Coincidentally I also have a Coman/ Comyn match. My Massey/ Mace line is related to le Goz or Hugh Lupus d' Avaranches whom gave 9 Lordships in Cheshire/ Chester to Hamo/ Hammond de Massey/ Mascy. The Norman Dukes all married Conteville/ Comyn/ de Burgh/ Burgos women. My Guillaume de La Ferte Mace married a Muriel de Conteville. Robert de Conteville a.k.a. de Mortain/ Mortagne was brother of Odo Bishop of Bayeux. (Conteville line) jdmassey73@gmail.com

      Delete
  38. My family is Norman on my mom's side. My aunt did our genealogy, and it can be traced directly to William the Conqueror. I believe the family line that is related to him is Rockstad.

    ReplyDelete
  39. I connect several times to WTC. Those ancient ancestors married into each other's families over and over and over again.
    By the way, does anyone have a good recommendation for learning to read DNA reports? Is there an online course that is really helpful?

    ReplyDelete
  40. Hi,

    I have six of those surnames in my YDNA test results with a good number of each Montgomery and Ramsay. But I belong to the group J2. I also share YDNA with the Rothchilds and the old Guggisberg family (distant) in Switzerland. It wouldn't be that far fetched that rather than I, J could be a likely candidate. My surname is Maddison and could be connected to the well know Maddison pedigree from Durham dating back to the 1100s.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Sir, your statement that showing DNA for William the conqueror is not easy is farcical. As I have commented to numerous people, DNA from the Conqueror or for that matter anybody before 1300ad requires DNA from the originator to show a relationship. Why then, do you not apply for DNA sample material from the conqueror, his wife and Gundrada , his daughter and stop making statements that are untenable to those who want to know, in other words, work for your money and stop acting ;like a heraldry house.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Raymond, William the Conqueror's body was not well-treated in the intervening centuries. If you can locate any of his personal remains, please forward their address.

      Delete
  42. What was the subclade of I1? Was it I1-L22? What families matched it? Are there matches in Normandy?

    ReplyDelete
  43. We are all interested in the results. The powers to be, publicize the results you got

    ReplyDelete
  44. Hi - My maiden name is Gifford and my Dad had his DNA tested for the US Gifford DNA project. I am a novice about all of this but his 37 markers matched 29 of those you listed for William the Conqueror. His Kit No. on Family Tree DNA is 167189. His 37 markers are:

    13 23 15 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29
    17 9 9 11 11 25 14 19 29 15 15 16 17
    11 11 19 23 17 15 17 16 36 37 12 12

    I have traced my family tree back to Thomas Gifford (1688-1743) but that is where I hit a brick wall. I had always been told as a child that the Giffords/Giffards came over from France with William the Conquerer but don't know if there is any actual connection to my actual family. I will try to keep an eye on your research as I find it all very fascinating. Best wishes, Susan Newson (nee Gifford)

    ReplyDelete
  45. I am a direct descendant of William Ambrose Gifford, the one who emigrated from England to Barnstable, Massachussets in the late 1600's. I come through his son Jonathan. I am very interested in confirming who his parents are. He is from Devon, England. I match WTC exactly or within one number on every one of the DNA markers so that's a very close relationshiop. Richard, may I use your article and add in DNA markers of Giffords as I find them for comparison. Great article! - Wayne G. Gifford Tucson, AZ (wayne.gifford@gmail.com)

    ReplyDelete
  46. My DNA numbers are almost an exact match for what is purposed to be that of William:
    13 24 14 11 12 15 12 12 11 12 12 28 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 17 11 10 19 23 15 14 18 18 35 38 12 12

    Wqyne Gifford

    ReplyDelete
  47. 28-29 generation WTC descendant here. I have one of each of the surnames connected with the DNA of WTC. The most firmly contrived genealogical surname tying me to the late king is Warren. Happy Hunting!

    ReplyDelete
  48. Dimmick DNA results are almost identical to that of Williams provided on your site. But we're talking Dymocks of Gloucestershire/ Somerset. I have no idea about the Y- DNA of the Lincolnshire Dymokes.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Dimmick/default.aspx?section=yresults

    My mother is a Dymock too.

    Not tested yet.

    It's getting more interesting by the day.
    Did you know all Dymoke manors were burnt to the ground not just Scriveslby and my own poor mother ( as in poor by what happened to her empty bank account) has had her shed burnt to the ground and it was no accident.

    I wonder why fire destroys anything Dymock related....

    ReplyDelete
  49. RE William The Conqueror I am R-BY21168 down stream from R-M222>R-S673 My Scott Line is Descended from the Balliol Family https://www.wikitree.com/wi... i have 3 Henry YDNA Matches Several Caine, Kane Matches and variant spellings of that surname, William had a son Robert de Caen and i Match some of the Montgomery's also My ID at YFULL is yf09886 and can be found under the R1B Branch or visit YDNA Surname groups at FTDNA of surnames mentioned above

    ReplyDelete
  50. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Very interesting article.. My family name is Oseman and my haplogroup is R-P312.. most of my ancestors were stone masons involved in Cathedral construction. I thought my name may have a connection to Saint Osmund but maybe it’s Osbern ...

    ReplyDelete
  52. I believe I am a x26 Grandson of William, Mathilde, Malcolm lll and Margaret. I am currently getting this (hopefully!) verified by
    a reputable organisation, but that of course does not rule out the pernicious `milkman` gene.
    Is there any existing genetic material of any of the ancestors of those 4 or indeed material from Henry l, Matilda , John, Henrys l-lll or Edwards l-lll who I have also calculated as Grandparents?

    ReplyDelete
  53. I Also Have a Warren Y67 DNA Match who also matches me BIG Y

    ReplyDelete
  54. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if William The Conqueror had used a surname, it would have been Rollo, would it not? So, why then is ROLLO not included in the list of names of likely relatives and descendants?

    ReplyDelete
  55. Hello everyone. If I have the raw DNA data from 23&me, ho can I check if the WCMH is present, or if there's a relation with William?

    ReplyDelete

  56. According to the reference dataset given here, 31 out of 37 markers are consistent with my Y-DNA test, with the remainder just slightly different. In my case, I only have a 37-37 match in Hesse. My ancestors came from there, where I can only assume because of an autosomal test that my surname Senninger goes back to the family Senning / Sinning from Alsfeld and Marburg in Hesse, which is already mentioned shortly after 1300 and there aldermen and bailiffs presented. It is a noble origin to suspect. The next results start with 25 markers with a deviation of 2. Here almost only English surnames appear. Often Randall, Wardrup, McGregor and Hunsicker (presumably from Switzerland) are after the direct evaluation of FTDNA. In the Normandy-Y DNA project, the surnames Sinkler and St. Clair appear several times in the immediate vicinity. A descendant of Hugh de Husse * 993 or even several Montgomery. In addition to the French, Scots, Irish and English, a few Danes and Swedes appear. My haplogroup is R1b1a2-U106-Z18, therefore Westgermanisch in the North Sea area. Whether the original version of the surname Synnyng with St. Clair / Sinclair / Sinkler agrees, I do not know. It is certain that there is still the place Seninghem south of Calais, in an area that is not in Normandy but also the Norman subordinate. Not far away is the village of Dennebrœucq, clearly named after Danish Vikings. There was also a noble family here that was close to the family of William the Conqueror and the Plantanegets. Maybe my ancestor came from the area near Calais with the Franks to Hesse. Both regions were already 481 AD to Austrasia, the first Frankish kingdom. Many Vikings / Normans served the Franks as warriors and certainly with appropriate school education as a steward. Greetings from Germany, Maik Senninger

    ReplyDelete
  57. I recently connected Ralph St. John 1037-1098 to the same paternal ancestor of William the Conqueror.

    Ralph St. John-Paynel 1037-1098
    Wimund le Goz II, Dapifer
    Wimund le Goz I, vicomes
    Ansfird le Goz II, Steward of Normandy
    Ansfrid I The Dane
    Hrolf Turstan
    Harollager
    Rognvald Eysteinsson

    We have confirmed our Y-DNA MRCA back to Thomas St. John 1564-1625 and we have very distant matches to three St. John men in Ireland whose ancestor appears to have gone to Ireland about 1212. We are R1b. We have several that have confirmed SNP DF27+ but recently had two men complete the Big Y so our Haplogroup-terminal SNP is now R-CTS649.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/StJohn?iframe=ycolorized

    Groups 00a and 00b

    stjohngenealogy@gmail.com

    ReplyDelete
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    ReplyDelete
  59. My husband has all of your first line of haplogroup for the Conqueror duplicated except 3 bottom numbers! His connection thru Richard Bayldon/(Baildon)(Belden),immigrant, & his mom Margaret Goodricke & dad Sir Francis Baildon back thru Norton & Mortimer is being challenged by recent genealogists(2001) with weak "proofs"! Maybe genetics can help here???

    ReplyDelete
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  61. I believe I have bi-angulated the yDNA of the House of Normandy. I've used yDNA and autosomal DNA matching. and it's taken me years to counter the incorrect research that has been published over the last century. Our yDNA group was fortunate enough to have been matched to an individual who, amazingly, has a paper trail back to Rollo.

    https://smithgenealogy.wordpress.com
    https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:DNA_Group_R-M269-9

    Thanks,

    Chris Smith

    ReplyDelete